DB and immediate vesting

Nathan

Hi All

When I do a DB transfer where the client is taking immediate benefits, I still carry out a TVAS providing a critical yield and document it within the report.

I am being asked to take it out but my belief is because the critical yield is over 30%.

The client has just been made redundant and so the scheme is not applying an early reduction factor.

any thoughts?

Suse1969

It's a difficult one because we don't need to do a TVAS with immediate vesting but I do exactly the same and run one, but I don't document it in the report. But I will do a cash flow analysis that shows a more meaningful outcome.

The TVAS really doesn't make any sense at this stage does it? You're no longer comparing apples with apples, but apples with pears and this level of CY is not uncommon in my experience. 

benjaminfabi

You do need to do a TVAS at immediate vesting, if the client has not reached the NRA of the ceding scheme.

This is a regulatory requirement - COBS 19.1.2 and 19.1.2A.

richardgough

TVAS was designed to enable a comparison of future scheme benefits to what an alternative pension plus 'standard' annuity would give - albeit the entire TVAS process is subject to numerous flaws.

Where an immediate benefit is being taken then a comparison to what the scheme would provide now to alternative benefits needs to be carried out; not a TVAS but either a scheme pension v annuity or some sort of investment return to match the scheme benefit over life expectance of client.

Having got that 'simple' annual investment return I would then be looking at downside risk / loss analysis on the investment side which I do via Voyant alongside internal research on our benchmark portfolios historic market falls.

Like Suse I would do a cash flow based on taking scheme benefits v cash flow on alternative.

benjaminfabi

Guidance to COBS 19.1.2 and 19.1.2A is provided in the handbook...

COBS 19.1.3 (5) where an immediate crystallisation of benefits is sought by the retail client prior to the ceding scheme’s normal retirement age, compare the benefits available from crystallisation at normal retirement age under that scheme.

That is a TVAS. Nathan, as your client appears to be going before NRA, your file needs a TVAS.  Your suitability report needs to explain what they are not going to get at NRA from the ceding scheme by taking benefits following a transfer now.

Suse1969

Do you highlight the CY Ben? Apologies if I've skewed the conversation at the start re immediate benefits; yes TVAS always done, but is the question about CY or the TVAS requirement? Nathan?

benjaminfabi

That COBS section also says that you have to give the comparison to the client. In reality this means including the full TVAS as an appendix/enclosure. 

Because of this requirement, I do emphasise the CY in the report, even if that means explaining that it has reduced value in the circumstances. The report needs to pick out the relevant information from the TVAS and add value to the client. 

I agree that the TVAS has no value at NRA when immediate benefits are being secured, especially via annuity.

But it can show the client (or force an adviser to highlight and duscuss) what they are giving up before NRA and I'm glad of its introduction as a requirement following pension freedoms.

Im sure at some point there will be mileage in a DB transfer session at a future powwow as this area is coming more into focus than before. 

DanAtkinsonUK

I think a DB transfer HowWow workshop is definitely in order - @richallum is this something that could be arranged? 

Suse1969

I'm all for that.

Suse1969

Old Mutual Wealth's Roddy Munro is very good.

Jamie_Barnes

Myself and a colleague attended an AXA DB transfer session the other day with Mark King and that was excellent; If anyone has an opportunity to attend any of the remaining dates I would thoroughly recommend, even if just as a refresher. 

richallum

Good idea.  I'm just sorting out the Excel Howwow and then can do one on this.  What would you prefer?

• a physical event in one maybe two locations
• An online Howwow
  

benjaminfabi

What I like about online is that you can record it and stick it up for everyone. 

richallum

me too @benjaminfabi It also allows more people to participate.

WoollyDragon

Online please. I can't get to any of the physical events

DanAtkinsonUK

Online sounds perfect. I went to an AXA session a year or so ago and it was really good! Not sure what the future holds for this team there though - John Haley did ours.

benjaminfabi

I would say that if you ever get the chance to go to a seminar with John Hayley you should go. Very good content and delivery backed up by proper understanding. 

Jamie_Barnes

Online does sound great - would agree the AXA tech team are all excellent (among the best certainly) - doesn't look good for future prospects though now that Phoenix have snapped up the remaining life & pensions business. Opportunity for them to go it alone now that Technical connection have been bought by SJP perhaps?

Suse1969

With the above - online. We don't get many AXA events up our way - will see if I can contact the names you guys have mentioned. 

Admin

OK, we'll sort an online one.  Any suggestions for good experts welcome and any volunteer paraplanners very welcome - we're looking at you @benjaminfabi ;

DanAtkinsonUK

Happy to share excel cashflow/matching/modelling/drawdown yield analysis techniques. This is proving to be more useful to our clients (and graphical) than the TVAS numbers. 

amarshall

This isn't an area we really get involved in but I'll definitely be tuning in for an online Howwow!

Andy

Colinstewart76

Good idea.